Zero Punctuation: Dark Souls

[Mad World]

Finally! I knew he'd end up liking it. Too many people focus on challenge as the defining feature of Dark Souls, but I agree with Yahtzee that the game's real draw is its atmosphere and unique style of storytelling. The difficulty of the gameplay is just one part of creating that atmosphere.

I agree. The atmosphere is amazing. Varies so much; snowy, sewer, cheap castle, high-end castle. It's great!

Sometimes, I think that Yahtzee totally misrepresents a game, but he hit the nail on the head with this review. At first, the game feels more linear and not as interesting. However, as you progress, you soon find out how open it all is, and to what degree the atmosphere changes.

Really is a great game. Too bad that the port to PC was so unbelievably unprofessional and downright horrible.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

Again, you are being disingenuous and misleading. When you talk about North, you say "hop down a a cliff." What cliff? The one that appears below the locked elevators to the burg? If that's the case, the cliff should have been a clue. If you're talking about passing through the big building that you were referencing, there is no cliff. Just a minor drop off with clearly visible stairs that go right back up to where you started.

The South you are talking about does not go through catacombs. It goes to New Londo, which does have a horde of zombie like creatures, but there is no "beating" them. They don't fight back. I am not sure what you're trying to reference here. Locked door of spikes and failure? That's in the actual catacombs. Your "north" option.

Dennis isn't a small path that is a texture loading error. It is a very obvious staircase going up path right next to your starting area that leads to a very clear and obvious dungeon area. There's even a dead body lying next to it on a well with a bright SHINY "come here and grab me" of 3 humanities. It's like a breadcrumb trail.

I think your frustration colors your hindsight on this. If you would actually load up the game and just look around from Firelink, I think your perspective would change vastly.

I did go load it up - mayhaps I was mis-remembering. But no. No, not really. You start in the corner of a giant destroyed building. And venturing into said building leads to a graveyard - and by leads i mean there is only one path, up a set of stairs, up a ladder and across a path to a small overlook above the graveyard(Not counting a single one-way detour to get a chest of goods) Its not obtuse - its damn linear gameplay. There are no warnings, no signs, nothing that indicates this graveyard is full of unbeatable enemies.
It IS a beginners trap, and on a game where its deliberately obtuse and difficult, that is just cruel. Its no immersive or deep or understanding. Its a cruel way to start a game.
So I put it down again - I do not trust that the rest of the game isn't like this. And I don't want to spend 30+ hours trying to get through the first dungeon.

And what shiny thing on the dead body?! There is just a dead body. No souls or anything. Just a body. How is a dead body a sign to continue but treasure chests in a building is a sign to turn around?!

 

[Evonisia]

I hate dark souls for the simple fact that you can't pause. Fuck whoever thought that was a good design decision.

I can agree with this.

It's like the designers at FROM have never had to take a piss in their entire lives.

In games which punish you for the crime of moving slightly to the left when you should have dodge rolled there is no time for urination.

 

[BehattedWanderer]

Oh, shit. He actually did it. I kinda thought this was gonna be like the Fifa review, but nope, he actually played it, and, what's more, actually liked it. Well. I did not expect that outcome. I mean, I'm glad to hear it, with how good the game is and all that, but it does have that magnificent "hope you've got enough time to learn everything about this game, you're gonna need a month and change or so" quality as it's first detriment to really getting your teeth in. I just...I didn't expect he'd do it.

Oh, and always nice to see a minor plug for the Dark Souls LP.

 

[Alarien]

snip myself here

I did go load it up - mayhaps I was mis-remembering. But no. No, not really. You start in the corner of a giant destroyed building. And venturing into said building leads to a graveyard - and by leads i mean there is only one path, up a set of stairs, up a ladder and across a path to a small overlook above the graveyard(Not counting a single one-way detour to get a chest of goods) Its not obtuse - its damn linear gameplay. There are no warnings, no signs, nothing that indicates this graveyard is full of unbeatable enemies.
It IS a beginners trap, and on a game where its deliberately obtuse and difficult, that is just cruel. Its no immersive or deep or understanding. Its a cruel way to start a game.
So I put it down again - I do not trust that the rest of the game isn't like this. And I don't want to spend 30+ hours trying to get through the first dungeon.

And what shiny thing on the dead body?! There is just a dead body. No souls or anything. Just a body. How is a dead body a sign to continue but treasure chests in a building is a sign to turn around?!

Well, I definitely respect that you loaded it up and looked around. When you first arrive at the Firelink Shrine, you do not start out in the corner of a destroyed building. You must have logged out there. You start out at the bonfire with a cinematic showing you, more or less, the direction you are meant to travel.

The body you mentioned IS the one I was talking about, but you have already grabbed the 3 humanities off of it. When you first arrive, there is a "loot" signal on it. It is meant to help draw your attention. You obviously didn't miss it, since you grabbed it, but you missed the signals indicating that you were meant to continue on up that path.

Again, I respect that you looked, but the game is nowhere near as obtuse as you make it out to be. Hell, I'll admit to you that Demon's Souls is probably that obtuse at first, but that specific concern was very significantly addressed with Dark Souls. If you don't trust it enough to continue the game, that's up to you and it's not a big deal. However, short of the game pulling what every other game does and cutting off the world and telling you which way you have to go, there really isn't much way to address your complaint, and that's specifically what most of the community who really likes this game appreciates that it does not do.

I will say this as well, you may find a lot of other games fun and entertaining, but you're not likely to find a game as rewarding as Dark Souls, if you put some time into it. I've played the hardest modes of most games I play and I find them to be "ok, so I did it." That's a far cry from the cathartic feeling/elation of defeating some of the more difficult encounters in Dark Souls. Yes, it's a certain amount of investment/reward that is not for everyone. Probably why I was a big fan of Everquest.

 

[MrHide-Patten]

As thus the children squealed with glee as Santa came round and didn't slap them for once, so they told him to play another Mario game in hopes he make like it... then he started slapping them again because that was a very stupid idea, children.

Whilst I do like it more when he finds a game he likes (can add one to my collection) I do get the feeling the Dark Souls "fanboys" will start preening with intolerable smugness... like those damn rabbits in that one gif.

Spoiler

That said I might pick it up... once I've finished up my backlog, but by then the graphics troll in my brain will start screaming how it looks dated.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

Yes. In New Londo.

(For once I was like "He'll probably wreck it somehow but I don't care - I'm secure in my love of Dark Souls" but then he liked it and all was good).

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

and here i am getting even more irritated over the fact the game uses GFWL and therefore is not avaliable in my region

 

[Optifix]

You start in the corner of a giant destroyed building. And venturing into said building leads to a graveyard - and by leads i mean there is only one path, up a set of stairs, up a ladder and across a path to a small overlook above the graveyard(Not counting a single one-way detour to get a chest of goods)

Actually, when you first get dropped in Firelink (you loaded up your old file), the first thing you see is a Bonfire and an NPC directly in front of you. That NPC tells you exactly where to go. He says there's two bells, one up and one below. Talk to him again and he says the first bell is in the Undead Church, but the lift is broken, so you'll have to climb the stairs up the ruins and access the Undead Burg through the waterway.

Hearing that and thinking he's talking about the building is understandable, but when you go that way, get killed by skeletons and see there's no waterway, it should be pretty obvious that that's not the way to go.

Also, you were making a big deal about running away from the first boss. When you get into that room, one of the first things you should notice is the tutorial message on the floor. Not only does the message say 'Get Away!', but it also puts you in view of the door opening.

So, whatever ideas you're applying to Dark Souls from other games you've played should be irrelevant, as the game shows and tells you what to do. To see those environmental clues and think, 'No, I'm supposed to fight that thing, that's what other games do' is a fault of your own and not of the game.

Those tutorial messages were left by the developers, by the way. Players can't leave messages in the Undead Asylum, because it's the tutorial level.

 

[otakon17]

Did anyone tell Yahtzee that Anor Londo was inhabited by GIANTS?

 

[IrisNetwork]

WOW! Yahtzee actually did it. After so many times of teasing us with a glance of the box art, he finally did a full review of Dark Souls.

He likened it to Half Life AND Painkiller? Looks like he liked it. A lot of spite for the online multiplayer but then, thats Yahtzee alright.

Also... *tosses Shadow Warrior at Yahtzee*

 

[Thanatos2k]

Here's the thing. Its a monster fighting game. You fight monsters. You are a dude whose sole purpose is to fight monsters. And you found a monster. And you're a monster fighter, in a monster fighting game. And you're tell me you're first thought was to run away from the monster, to not fight the monster because the monster is too big?!

Sounds like you assumed something and you're mad your flawed assumptions were wrong.

You know what they say about when you assume....

God help you if you ever play Shadows of the Colossus - you'll never get anything done!

You're doing the equivalent of seeing a colossus in SotC, leaping onto its leg, stabbing it repeatedly, and crying out "WHY ISN'T IT DYING!?"

I did go load it up - mayhaps I was mis-remembering. But no. No, not really. You start in the corner of a giant destroyed building. And venturing into said building leads to a graveyard - and by leads i mean there is only one path, up a set of stairs, up a ladder and across a path to a small overlook above the graveyard(Not counting a single one-way detour to get a chest of goods) Its not obtuse - its damn linear gameplay. There are no warnings, no signs, nothing that indicates this graveyard is full of unbeatable enemies.
It IS a beginners trap, and on a game where its deliberately obtuse and difficult, that is just cruel. Its no immersive or deep or understanding. Its a cruel way to start a game.

It's only a trap if you somehow forgot the lesson in the tutorial ten minutes ago that some enemies are not beatable when you first encounter them. But hey, who ever listens to tutorials anyways, right?

 

[Sheo_Dagana]

The video was hilarious and made me want to go and play Dark Souls until I remembered that I bought it at launch for $60 and then almost immediately traded it back. The atmosphere and exploration were something I really wanted to get into, but the difficulty was just too much for me. I do hear tell that it's a lot easier to get into after you managed to defeat the second boss, but eh, I just didn't have it in me.

Don't get me wrong, the game is really neat and I'm glad Dark Souls has it's loyal audience, but it just isn't for me. Sharp difficulty curbs just aren't my thing.

 

[lRookiel]

Now try some PVP Yahtzee......


DO IT!

 

[WWmelb]

It's nice to see people pointing out that it wasn't necessarily the difficulty that made Dark Souls enjoyable. Once I got past some initial grinding and shamelessly wikied the basic mechanics and arbitrary quest lines, the underlying narrative was able to draw me in.

And don't get me started on the fucking gargoyle bosses on the roof of the undead church (or wherever it was)...

Summon Solaire and apply the lightning powder.

Boom, boss fight over.

Which is where instructions for summoning would have been nice. Those things minced me a dozen times before I looked up that humanity was more than a cosmetic.

Well, you meet Solaire before you get to the gargoyles, and if you take the time to talk to him, he explains how to summon and how it works, so the game DOES give you instructions, just gives them in the game world, as you are playing, not far before you need to know.

You start in the corner of a giant destroyed building. And venturing into said building leads to a graveyard - and by leads i mean there is only one path, up a set of stairs, up a ladder and across a path to a small overlook above the graveyard(Not counting a single one-way detour to get a chest of goods)

Actually, when you first get dropped in Firelink (you loaded up your old file), the first thing you see is a Bonfire and an NPC directly in front of you. That NPC tells you exactly where to go. He says there's two bells, one up and one below. Talk to him again and he says the first bell is in the Undead Church, but the lift is broken, so you'll have to climb the stairs up the ruins and access the Undead Burg through the waterway.

Hearing that and thinking he's talking about the building is understandable, but when you go that way, get killed by skeletons and see there's no waterway, it should be pretty obvious that that's not the way to go.

Also, you were making a big deal about running away from the first boss. When you get into that room, one of the first things you should notice is the tutorial message on the floor. Not only does the message say 'Get Away!', but it also puts you in view of the door opening.

So, whatever ideas you're applying to Dark Souls from other games you've played should be irrelevant, as the game shows and tells you what to do. To see those environmental clues and think, 'No, I'm supposed to fight that thing, that's what other games do' is a fault of your own and not of the game.

Those tutorial messages were left by the developers, by the way. Players can't leave messages in the Undead Asylum, because it's the tutorial level.

I appreciate you taking the time to type out most of the things i was going to type, thanks lol.

2) Read some guides and do not feel bad about it. Dark Souls isn't a game that you have to play blind unless you really just want to claim some sort of pseudo-ironman bullshit.

Well, as i stated before, i didn't look up a guide until my third play through, not out of some stupid "pseudo-ironman bullshit". That is not the ONLY reason to play without a guide. The thrill and wonder of exploration is what kept me away from guides, and the joy of the kill when i finally got it.

 

[Infernal Lawyer]

SNIP

The problem I had with it was the utter lack of direction. You're not told anything and expected to learn by dying enough times to trial-and-error your way through.

Unfortunately, I went into the game with the expectation of "Really challenging but also very rewarding RPG" when what it played like was a 3D version of 'I Wanna Be The Guy.' Those are two wildly different experiences. They can both be fun, sure, but you have to know what you're getting into and design the game appropriately. I think a lot more people would enjoy the game if it was just a little more obvious what direction you're supposed to be going in. Not what direction you're required to go in, mind you. If you want to brave an area that expects you to be much tougher than you are, then by all means.

But as it stands, it's a game with very little direction to give players that expects you to gauge which way you need to go based on whichever direction kills you the fewest times, and that's a problem. In virtually every game ever, 'death' is synonymous with 'failure.' If you didn't enter the game with the modified mindset that death does not equal failure, you're going to get frustrated real fast.

And when you have a dozen different types of weapons, spells, and magic doo-dads that can drastically change how effective you are against certain enemies, there will be players (like you and me, apparently) who hurl themselves into zones while wildly underleveled because the only information on the game they were told was "The game is super hard."

I agree with you 100%. As a player, you had no direction and no basis from which understand and judge encounters. Like the first boss that you run away from. That killed me maybe a dozen times because I've never heard of a game where you run away from the FIRST boss. Especially when the first level is a training course to get familiarized with the controls. Usually the first boss is a test of the basic dodge/block/hit/more powerful hit mechanics. Not a beginners trap you're not supposed to fight.
Who would have guessed you're supposed to run away?! To me it would be the equivalent of having the first puzzle room in Portal be solved by leaving the area through the door you came in. You would never think to do it unless you were really REALLY desperate.

I only played DS for about ten minutes to give it a shot, but I have to ask: Didn't you notice the sign in front of you screaming "RUN!" or something like that? It was on the floor right in front of me when I played.

And surely at the very least you must have played a game with a chase sequence or something that didn't involve instantly trying to butt heads with the boss.

 

[michael87cn]

I hate dark souls for the simple fact that you can't pause. Fuck whoever thought that was a good design decision.

You can pause. By quitting the game you go to the title screen but your character stays where they were. It also only takes a couple of seconds to quit the game, and a couple of seconds to get going again when you return.

 

[draigodragon]

and the lore is fucking amazing

 

[Mikejames]

Well, you meet Solaire before you get to the gargoyles, and if you take the time to talk to him, he explains how to summon and how it works, so the game DOES give you instructions, just gives them in the game world, as you are playing, not far before you need to know.

Solaire tells you to use his glowing signature for jolly cooperation, but no one ever clarifies that you can't see summon markers when you're hollow.

 

[WWmelb]

Well, you meet Solaire before you get to the gargoyles, and if you take the time to talk to him, he explains how to summon and how it works, so the game DOES give you instructions, just gives them in the game world, as you are playing, not far before you need to know.

Solaire tells you to use his glowing signature for jolly cooperation, but no one ever clarifies that you can't see summon markers when you're hollow.

I guess that's true, hrmm. I guess i just figured it out through play then.