Zero Punctuation: Metal Gear Solid 4

[John Funk]

.... why do I even bother? As I have said before in the end its about the hypocracy of him bashing a game he very well could have made. Frankly he didn't even do a good job of bashing all the flaws in the game but thats not even the point. The fact that I think most of you who can't handle cut scenes out there need to lay off the Halo is irrelevent. the FACT is that he wrote a game that is very much like most of Hideos work and then he bashes MGS4 for something HE has done himself. how hard is that to understand?

Yahtzee made an adventure game. The story there IS the gameplay, as with all games in the genre. Gameplay is still the driving factor, and there is much more of it than story.

With Metal Gear Solid 4, a self-proclaimed 'action' game, the fact that there is at least twice as much story (likely much more) than gameplay, and that cutscenes INTERRUPT the gameplay? That's a huge flaw in game design.

The final cutscene--from the moment you last control Snake in any way shape or form, to the moment the last person finishes speaking, is over an hour and fifteen minutes long.

That's *absurd.*

I love me a good story, but if I want something like that I'll read a book.

 

[Groovewood]

.... why do I even bother? As I have said before in the end its about the hypocracy of him bashing a game he very well could have made. Frankly he didn't even do a good job of bashing all the flaws in the game but thats not even the point. The fact that I think most of you who can't handle cut scenes out there need to lay off the Halo is irrelevent. the FACT is that he wrote a game that is very much like most of Hideos work and then he bashes MGS4 for something HE has done himself. how hard is that to understand?

But does Yahtzee say his game is an awesome experience? I don't know, but I don't think so. If he did then that could be conceived as hypocrisy, but then again there are many more factors to take into account. You can write a mystery and still find fault with another mystery story. Who's to say Yahtzee likes his game? Maybe when he created it he did, but maybe now he thinks it's total crap.

 

[VMerken]

Overall, the game's cut scenes just feel bloated more than anything else, very little essential stuff, but lots of minor little stuff filling in the spaces between the real plot points.

Yep, and ironically, some of the more interesting parts of the *actual game* are not covered with the same type of zeal as the "minor little stuff". A pity, because those are the parts I'd like to see covered - the ones which have an impact on the game itself

 

[Magugag]

Hey, I can sum stuff up too!

When a game ceases to be a game and becomes a book or movie, it is transcending the genre but in a literal way not a good way. It is then no longer a good game even if it is a great story.

There!

 

[tratorix]

.... why do I even bother? As I have said before in the end its about the hypocracy of him bashing a game he very well could have made. Frankly he didn't even do a good job of bashing all the flaws in the game but thats not even the point. The fact that I think most of you who can't handle cut scenes out there need to lay off the Halo is irrelevent. the FACT is that he wrote a game that is very much like most of Hideos work and then he bashes MGS4 for something HE has done himself. how hard is that to understand?

Yup, we're all just a bunch of idiots who play nothing but Halo and can't understand Hideo's IMPORTANT MESSAGE. Maybe some day someone will fulfill your dream of a game that's just a single character talking about his life experiences for 20 hours with no annoying gameplay. Also, I'm pretty sure none of Yahtzee's game had cutscenes that were over twenty minutes long. It's very hard to compare adventure games someone made in their spare time and an action game with a huge production staff and a million dollar budget.

 

[TerraMGP]

.... why do I even bother? As I have said before in the end its about the hypocracy of him bashing a game he very well could have made. Frankly he didn't even do a good job of bashing all the flaws in the game but thats not even the point. The fact that I think most of you who can't handle cut scenes out there need to lay off the Halo is irrelevent. the FACT is that he wrote a game that is very much like most of Hideos work and then he bashes MGS4 for something HE has done himself. how hard is that to understand?

But does Yahtzee say his game is an awesome experience? I don't know, but I don't think so. If he did then that could be conceived as hypocrisy, but then again there are many more factors to take into account. You can write a mystery and still find fault with another mystery story. Who's to say Yahtzee likes his game? Maybe when he created it he did, but maybe now he thinks it's total crap.

If he actually put out a game he himself thought was bad, let alone put enough time and effort into that story... honestly at that point he just has no business reviewing games. When you are an independent game designer you make games YOU would want to play, they are a reflection of what YOU have to offer. If he didn't think he at least had a good concept he would never put it out.

Bottom line is that if you people really think that its bad for not fitting into a nice neat little mold, which none of the MGS games have really done, then, well, I just don't know what people want but I feel like the future of video games is bleak.

 

[letherclad]

I assume it was just a coincidence that a ninja gaiden 2 trailer came on after you tore mgs4 apart... what a sellout

 

[Proto Cloud]

Holy crap, this is some serious war going on against ZP fans and the critics. I'm not even going to bother getting into the fray as it's likely that no one will change their minds, because everyone thinks of themselves as the most knowledgeable.

Now I haven't played the game, so I have no right to contest his opinion, but I have to say that all the ZP fans should unanimously shut up about the game unless they've played it themselves (seriously, how many of you have PS3s?).

I also have to agree with Terra on her points, Yahtzee has caved in to popular demand. As evidenced by the lack of interest in his positive reviews (Portal, Psychonauts, and COD4). But I don't blame him, as he even admits to it at the end of this video by saying: "I'm probably just jealous because I'm not yet in a position where I can write whatever bollocks I want and never get called on it." This is perhaps why he is so hypocritical, eh.

Personally, I can't wait to play this game. I don't care what he says because I know he's all about instant gratification. I just wish he would make more personal reviews, instead of making them repetitive rant fests. (like SSBB and virtually every RPG) Because all he does is hammer repeatedly on one or two problems he has with the genre or series and gives no concession.

 

[yzzlthtz]

FF game stories, aside from 9 anyways, stopped being good after six.

this was just a random message i quoted to point this out:

it's hilarious to me how people on forums (especially gamer forums) state opinions like they are bone fide scientific fact researched by bona fide scientists in science labs around the world.


Yahtzee, while very observant intelligent and funny, comes across more and more as a 360 fanboy who successfully tells the frothing nerd masses what to think about every game he reviews. Between him and Kotaku, there is hardly an original opinion amongst the brainwashed nerd elite.

 

[TerraMGP]

What I am saying is story is not bad, and alot of detail can be a very good thing especially when presented well. Again this is why people need to be forced to do some real RP heavy D&D once in a while.

 

[Yahtzee Croshaw]

Wait, Yahtzee has an ACTION game with 20-30 minute cutscenes?

 

[tratorix]

.... why do I even bother? As I have said before in the end its about the hypocracy of him bashing a game he very well could have made. Frankly he didn't even do a good job of bashing all the flaws in the game but thats not even the point. The fact that I think most of you who can't handle cut scenes out there need to lay off the Halo is irrelevent. the FACT is that he wrote a game that is very much like most of Hideos work and then he bashes MGS4 for something HE has done himself. how hard is that to understand?

But does Yahtzee say his game is an awesome experience? I don't know, but I don't think so. If he did then that could be conceived as hypocrisy, but then again there are many more factors to take into account. You can write a mystery and still find fault with another mystery story. Who's to say Yahtzee likes his game? Maybe when he created it he did, but maybe now he thinks it's total crap.

If he actually put out a game he himself thought was bad, let alone put enough time and effort into that story... honestly at that point he just has no business reviewing games. When you are an independent game designer you make games YOU would want to play, they are a reflection of what YOU have to offer. If he didn't think he at least had a good concept he would never put it out.

Bottom line is that if you people really think that its bad for not fitting into a nice neat little mold, which none of the MGS games have really done, then, well, I just don't know what people want but I feel like the future of video games is bleak.

I don't think the MGS games are bad. I don't think they are perfect. I think they could be improved. That's the message i'm getting from a lot of people here. You just seem to be taking it way too personally. Are you Hideo Kojima in disguise?

 

[SirSchmoopy]

You hate his inconsistencies but are bored that his opinions are sometimes consistent?

There is a major difference between making a game and reviewing it. More often then not you can make something and go "Why did I even do that?". Did Yahtzhee ever say his game was a perfect game and this is how all games should be designed? Or was he just making a game to make one? I doubt he thinks his game is perfect and I bet theres some things he wish he could change so to use it as a guide line for comparing his game to his reviews is like using a ruler to decide how tasty an apply is.

 

[Magugag]

Terra, I happen to be a DM. I went out and bought all those damn 4th edition books the day they came out (goddamn pricey I'll add) and I plan to DM for a very long time to come. Know what the key to a successful campaign is? Keep the story moving along at a good pace so that things don't stagnate. Also, I'm an avid roleplayer, but that's about as geeky as I'll go into that bit. I create character motivations and double crosses and little love interests and even the occasional silly twist. I can forgive that, that's fine, but I stand by my earlier assessment about the presentation.

 

[VMerken]

What I am saying is story is not bad, and alot of detail can be a very good thing especially when presented well. Again this is why people need to be forced to do some real RP heavy D&D once in a while.

Yes, but in MGS4's case I think the argument can be made (and defended as I've done above) that the story - with respect to the game - has NOT been presented well. As for real RP heavy D&D: I recommend Planescape: Torment and Fallout 1 and 2.

 

[UninspiringlyNamed]

I have never played any of the MGS games, but I know a couple of fanboys of the franchise and one of them tried to 'convert' me with MGS4 and if I'm honest, it didn't really press many buttons for me. Without all of the backstory I didn't really find myself at ease with the world and as a standalone story, what I saw of MGS4 wasn't all that great. It had its moments, but on the whole it wasn't good enough to base a game around, which is a shame because I like the idea of varying cutscene-gameplay ratio to 'mix things up' and make heavily-cinematic sorts of games. Good call on the necklines thing as well, hehe.

In all, an entertaining piece but it probably wouldn't deter me from buying the game if I was going to.

 

[TerraMGP]

No, though I am broke enough that I wish I was. I just hate to see Yatzee sell out and this was the straw that broke the camels back. If he has genuine issues with MGS4 then fine I can accept that, My main point is simply that I hate to see him cave to peer pressure as he seems to be and shifting to whatever mindset lets him bash the hardest.

As for making a game and reviewing, one lends itself to the other. He never said his game was perfect, but by putting it out there he said it was good enough to play, it was a reflection of the kind of work he does and now bashing someone for doing the same just because it makes him so popular. The game is still a reflection of who he is, and he is saying that someone else doing the same thing was bad. He made relatively HUGE cutscenes for someone using AGS and probably would have made longer. My problem is that he is guilty of doing what he is saying is bad for a big time producer to do almost to a T.

Also I never said I was bored with him, I'm only bored now that hes selling out and the charm is gone

Also also, to quote my cousin

4E is the absolute worst thing to ever happen to gaming.

 

[TerraMGP]

Stupid accidental double post

 

[VMerken]

Terra, I happen to be a DM. I went out and bought all those damn 4th edition books the day they came out (goddamn pricey I'll add) and I plan to DM for a very long time to come. Know what the key to a successful campaign is? Keep the story moving along at a good pace so that things don't stagnate. Also, I'm an avid roleplayer, but that's about as geeky as I'll go into that bit. I create character motivations and double crosses and little love interests and even the occasional silly twist. I can forgive that, that's fine, but I stand by my earlier assessment about the presentation.

Hehe, why not try the Kojima Way of DMing next time? It might be as awesome as some wager here.

DM: "Right, let me start with a 23 minute long introduction. [...] So, Player1, you are standing behind some trucks in a desolate, wartorn, landscape in the Orient. What will you do?"

Player1: "... huh. What?! Okay. Uhm, I'll move slightly to the left."

DM: "Good. That triggers a 5 minute event which I'll tell now. [...] So, Player1, what do you do next?"

DM: "Player1? Player2? Guys?! Where are you?"

 

[TerraMGP]

Thats usually about how most of our games go, not as cynically but we will go whole sessions with little or no rolling.