Germany embassy in Sudan stormed

[ParanoidEngineer]

And this is why you don't insult major religious figures. Without wishing to offend anyone, I'd be surprised if a huge backlash (obviously not violent) didn't occur if someone had made a video of Jesus punching donkeys and raping women or whatever they depicted in the video.

 

[Souleks]

What bothers me is the US government's noncommittal response. By not defending our citizens actions (no matter if we personally agree or not), we are abandoning the freedoms laid forth in our constitution. If citizens of another nation can silence American citizens by protest, violence, and murder, then all that America stands for is truly dead.

Free Speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences.

This is not a consequence. This is a violent mob response to an "offensive" video (from a group who get murderous if you even DRAW He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Insulted). This is an American making a (poorly-produced) protected statement, and being thrown to the wolves in order to appease those same wolves.
In essence, the US is saying "These people's request that you not insult Islam matters more to us than your freedom of speech or expression."

Put it this way.

I child is poking a sleeping bear with a stick.

Now that child has all the right in the world to poke that bear with said stick.

Just don't be surprised when the bear wakes up and mauls him.

Freedom of speech isn't some infallible defence to say what you want. I'm sick of people claiming that it is, and that any action taken against someone because of what they said is impeding their 'rights'.

So what you're saying is that these people performing these actions on behalf of their particular fairy tale character are comparible to undomesticated animals who attack what they don't understand? On this, we agree.

That's not what I'm saying at all.

Nice attempt at putting words in my mouth though.

I apologize for attempting to put words in your mouth, as true as they are. These people are acting like undomesticated animals. Show me another culture in the modern world that reacts this violently to someone saying something on the other side of the world that hurts their feelings. Show me another religion that, at this time in history, flips shit and thinks murder, pain, and destruction is a valid response to someone SAYING something with which they don't agree.

All they're doing is proving that there's no place in the international community for a culture who haven't yet discovered that words aren't worth taking life over. The only correct reponse here is to cut off all ties, get our people out of the region, get our money out of the region, and let them live in their dirt to kill each other once they don't have us as an outlet for their aggression.

I think its less the religion and more the people who are in power using it as a cover to manipulate their people I think you could compare it to back to when in the middle ages the bible wasn't available to non-priests and they told people how to interpret it.With the Third Crusade it was a war fought primarily over religion and while maybe some of the educated individuals knew something was to gain most of the people that joined up and fought believed they fought for god.
Also I wish we could do that but you know the whole oil thing and we don't want them attacking our BFF Israel.

 

[Tay051173096]

I for one am surprised that it has not been more bloody.

I lived in Saudi Arabia for 11 years and came across two different sorts of muslim:

Ones that viewed westerners as ignorant idiots about their religon and culture but forgave them and made efforts to be friendly and teach them about their world view

and

Ones that viewed westerners as ignorant idiots about their religon and culture, get very angry about it and a pecentage of these will cause alot of trouble for everyone...

It does not help that the muslim religon has so many branches/sects, who all seem to hate each other.

Radicals always react to this sort of thing, the main problem is that the internet and moblie phones make it very easy and quick to spread the hatered.

 

[tangoprime]

It's disgusting how easily a peaceful religion can get twisted and corrupted like this. Hopefully cooler-heads prevail and they can calm the radicals down.

Personally I'm not so sure it's a peaceful religion.


The name of this video might seem hateful on islam, but it's a very reasonable presentation.

Thank you for sharing this video. More people need to hear this.
It's a shame so many of those he's talking about in this video would rather murder him than allow people to hear his words.

 

[MammothBlade]

The director of said film is in no way responsible for the violent mob rampages. No, the people responsible are the individuals who participate in violent mobs themselves. People aren't compelled to go and bomb Western embassies because someone criticised their religion. They chose to participate in such hateful, extremist violence and they alone are to blame. They could have chosen to react with tolerance towards free speech, but instead they went into a violent fit over it.

With one hand you protect and the other hand you condemn.

You can't seriously say that the director is blameless in this situation at all, exacerbating anti-western sentiment by creating an anti-islam film is the root of this situation in which innocent people lost their lives.
Regardless if they are people of the USA or other countries, people died.

It truly is shocking how blind you can be because one person is "exercising his freedom of speech".
Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing but hate speech isn't covered under it, quit wrapping him up in the stars and stripes.

Of course I do. The violent mob are primarily at fault, and I strongly side with the ideals of free speech and secularism over theocratic censorship and religious violence.

Define "hate speech". It is likely not what you think it is. And also, I, like you am a Brit, so I wouldn't exactly be wrapping them in stars and stripes. This goes beyond nationalism.

 

[Roggen Bread]

Spoiler: Some very odd related searches. Especially the one I underlined.

Anyway, all of this is rather excessive over a film is it not? Somebody needs to calm this whole situation down. Especially since it seems Germany didn't do a huge amount to be attacked.

I do love some of the comments as well.

I just feel horrible for the innocent Muslims over there. Their entire religion and population is demonized due to the actions of some radicals. Do these radicals even understand that they are only making us hate their people more? It baffles me.

You have to give some credit to the good-aligned clerics over there though. They risk their lives trying to diffuse these situations everyday and end up dead a lot of the time

For what it's worth. I hate those beasts, for they are nothing more and nothing less.
Okay, maybe they are less. Beasts don't attack without reason. They are just scum.

And those good-algned clerics...
well, you are right. But they are good aligned clerics. The REAL martyrs. It's just what they do

In my opinion the muslim community is at a level with christianity around the time of the 14th century. Give them 300-400 years and they MIGHT grow the fuck up.

Funny how it has changed. Back then the christians where the savages and the muslims were the peaceful, wise and well educated people. It has changed indeed (please note: America is OUT of this equation).

My mother is a midwife and told me about pregnant women who don't eat or drink during the ramadan (ya know, people don't eat or drink when the sun's up) because the stupid uneducated elder people say, it was written that they were not allowed to and pressure them not to eat or drink.

Truth: The koran does not only allow pregnant women to drink or eat, it says they SHOULD.

This is kinda (not this particular example) the same thing happening in christianty 800 years ago.

 

[JeffBergGold]

Looks like America just found their next war. It's funny because people were advocating the downsizing of the military. Doesn't really seem like a good idea, does it?

 

[MrPeanut]

Woah, hey, Sudan, didn't you guys get the memo that said we should play nice around Germany now?

>_>

 

[Captainanorach]

The problem is that, some people seem to hold the belief, that freedom of speech is the same as freedom from accountability.

It shouldn't be the case. The director of the film should be punished, for effectively causing the death of the American embassy workers.

It's also possible/probable that anti-American groups eg. al Qaeda are just using it as an excuse to go on a rampage, using 'religious truth' to incite moderate Muslims into an angry mob.

 

[Riff Moonraker]

What bothers me is the US government's noncommittal response. By not defending our citizens actions (no matter if we personally agree or not), we are abandoning the freedoms laid forth in our constitution. If citizens of another nation can silence American citizens by protest, violence, and murder, then all that America stands for is truly dead.

What do you think the US should be doing? I'm not trying to be insulting, I'm genuinely curious.

I think what he is talking about is the apologies being issued for the video from our government, instead of standing up for the freedom of speech. These idiots over there are getting all bent out of shape because, awwww, they have had a slight against their religion. Christianity gets run through the mud every day, in fact often in these forums, and you dont see us Christians out there going berserk and killing people over it.

Besides, open your eyes, they are just using the video as an excuse. This was planned, and would have happened anyway.

 

[Lyri]

Of course I do. The violent mob are primarily at fault, and I strongly side with the ideals of free speech and secularism over theocratic censorship and religious violence.

Define "hate speech". It is likely not what you think it is. And also, I, like you am a Brit, so I wouldn't exactly be wrapping them in stars and stripes. This goes beyond nationalism.

Then I will apologise for mistaken identity of nationality.

Yes the mob are responsible but you're shielding the spark that ignited the flames.
This is cause and effect and you can't overlook one to condemn the other, an anti-islamic film like the one created by the director is most definitely hate speech.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

Looks like America just found their next war. It's funny because people were advocating the downsizing of the military. Doesn't really seem like a good idea, does it?

I doubt a war would break out over this.

Well, it shouldn't if people are sensible about it.

...

Nevermind.

 

[JeffBergGold]

The problem is that, some people seem to hold the belief, that freedom of speech is the same as freedom from accountability.

It shouldn't be the case. The director of the film should be punished, for effectively causing the death of the American embassy workers.

It's also possible/probable that anti-American groups eg. al Qaeda are just using it as an excuse to go on a rampage, using 'religious truth' to incite moderate Muslims into an angry mob.

Completely agree, if a person says or creates something they know will cause outrage they're perfectly entitled to. They are also entitled to the consequences of whatever their creation brings.

Not only has this idiots desire to exercise his "free speech" resulted in the deaths of American Embassy workers it has caused millions of dollars in destruction and resulted in political instability that might require military action.

All because this guy felt entitled to make a movie bashing muslims.

I say send him over on a platter to quash all this madness, no point in sacrificing thousands of peoples lives just because of this idiot.

Looks like America just found their next war. It's funny because people were advocating the downsizing of the military. Doesn't really seem like a good idea, does it?

I doubt a war would break out over this.

Well, it shouldn't if people are sensible about it.

...

Nevermind.

You know the drill by now!

 

[Erttheking]

Religion, one of the most ridiculous institutions humainty has ever invented. I'd laugh over the whole thing if it wasn't tragic on so many levels.

I'd never let myself be associated with an institution so anti-woman and that is associated with the leading cause of human death. With current events unfolding as they are, this milestone, made collectively by all religions, will only be made more unreachable by any other method humans could hope to think of.

captcha: fruit salad

You damn right it is, Captcha.

This isn't R&P, can we please leave out general religion bashing?

 

[Combustion Kevin]

Looks like America just found their next war. It's funny because people were advocating the downsizing of the military. Doesn't really seem like a good idea, does it?

first of all, America can roll these guys over wether they downsize their army or not.

secondly, even if they did they wouldn't gain anything from it, the country has no tactical importance or resource value, and an attack would only provoke the already aggravated anti-western sentiment present in that country, not to mention any country quite like it.

I think the US can do without another war.

 

[The Funslinger]

What bothers me is the US government's noncommittal response. By not defending our citizens actions (no matter if we personally agree or not), we are abandoning the freedoms laid forth in our constitution. If citizens of another nation can silence American citizens by protest, violence, and murder, then all that America stands for is truly dead.

Free Speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences.

I have to agree with Daystar on this one, you can feel free to walk into the middle of a gang and start implying that they all sleep with their mothers, and freedom of speech isn't going to protect you there. I just wish the consequences were going to the asshole who made the film, and not random American and German citizens, who might not have even known that it existed.

Agreed.

This particular instance is rather disturbing because others are dying because of the ill-conceived actions of another.

Agreed. If this were an instance of one person, I'd feel little to no pity, but the problem is these people are killed/in danger because of the actions of someone their only link to is nationality.

 

[awesomeClaw]

First off, the guy was completely justified in making his movie. Was it dumb? Sure. Was it an incredibly stupid message, amplified thousandfold by its poor execution? Absolutely. Was it bad? Without a doubt. Was it illegal? No.

Whoever made the video shouldn´t be punished. He´s done nothing wrong(well, except for making a shit movie). All he did was make a movie that was critical of a religion. Punishing him for that would be an affront to both freedom of speech and justice.

Don´t blame the guy who made a movie. Blame the violent extremists killing people over said movie.

 

[JeffBergGold]

Looks like America just found their next war. It's funny because people were advocating the downsizing of the military. Doesn't really seem like a good idea, does it?

first of all, America can roll these guys over wether they downsize their army or not.

What gives you that idea?

First off, the guy was completely justified in making his movie. Was it dumb? Sure. Was it an incredibly stupid message, amplified thousandfold by it´s poor execution? Absolutely. Was it bad? Without a doubt. Was it illegal? No.

Whoever made the video shouldn´t be punished. He´s done nothing wrong(well, except for making a shit movie). All he did was make a movie that was critical of a religion. Punishing him for that would be an affront to both freedom of speech and justice.

Don´t blame the guy who made a movie. Blame the violent extremists killing people over said movie.

Free speech does not mean immunity from outfall caused by said speech. It would be justice if we sent him over there to face the music imo. If he's a big enough man to make the film he should be a big enough man to face the consequences.

 

[tangoprime]

First off, the guy was completely justified in making his movie. Was it dumb? Sure. Was it an incredibly stupid message, amplified thousandfold by it´s poor execution? Absolutely. Was it bad? Without a doubt. Was it illegal? No.

Whoever made the video shouldn´t be punished. He´s done nothing wrong(well, except for making a shit movie). All he did was make a movie that was critical of a religion. Punishing him for that would be an affront to both freedom of speech and justice.

Don´t blame the guy who made a movie. Blame the violent extremists killing people over said movie.

Thank you, well said. There is no excuse for these peoples' behavior. "He hurt my feelings" is NOT A VALID EXCUSE FOR MURDER.

 

[Azo Galvat]

Could the maker of this film be arrested and convicted of murder?