Male problems only ever come up as a counter-argument

[1981]

Well...I feel like crap now.

Surely there's something to be gained by talking about it. At the very least it'll end with some people actually knowing what the hell is going on.

I'm sorry, it wasn't my intention to make you feel like crap. I just think it's not a big mystery that people like to make themselves feel/seem like they're in the thick of a "struggle" when they're not. These days we have people inventing those fights, just to be a part of them. It's not a mystery though, it's just grotesque.
[...]

It is important to distinguish real issues from made-up ones. They are a thing. I've seen how invented traumas can nearly ruin people's lives. And even if it's real, you shouldn't get so hung up on it that it makes you bitter, because that won't help anyone.

 

[Neonit]

Well, i seem to recall that there were multiple attempts to discuss male problems here, on this very forum.
IIRC it started as a discussion about male problems, and then quickly (as in, on the first page) progressed into "women have it so much worse, stop whining" "you are just doing it to shut up the discussion about female problems". And to be fair, i think it was mostly white knights who did it, not the women (but it was long ago so i could be wrong)

So yeah, id say "Male problems only ever come up as a counter-argument" is kinda BS.

The point is as always: damned if you do, damned if you dont. We men are simple, basic creatures, because we are unable to talk about our feelings. But when we do try to discuss our feelings, we are weak, whining, and need to shut up. Id guess others are taking the same solution as me - only speak about your feelings with your (very) good friends. Preferably males, because they are more likely to understand.

 

[2012 Wont Happen]

The only political/ideological group which I ever see consistently bringing up problems men face such as lowered sense of self-worth from not fitting an overly masculine stereotype, feeling shoehorned into gender rolls with which they don't personally feel comfortable, lack of support for male victims of domestic abuse and rape, and high suicide rates which accompany all of these issues are feminist activists. The violent death part is more generally acknowledged and bemoaned across "left" ideologies, particularly as it pertains to black men, but is certainly acknowledged by feminists quite often.

It is, accordingly, incredibly ironic to me when anti-feminists try to bring these things up to shut down feminists. One can't shut someone down by highlighting something they already actively oppose, all it does is derail a conversation about other problems which also exist. Although, when anti-feminists reference "problems facing men" in response to feminist arguments, it is quite often less highlighting the legitimate issues men face and more complaining about the loss of power to the generally dominant class inherent to the process of another class of the same category moving towards equality, which is less ironic but much more asinine.

 

[runic knight]

I would guess because it's also a stereotype that men shouldn't talk about their problems.

It sounds a little like a whiny child to me, "why are women get all the attention? We have problems toooo", yeah of course you do but look at the state of the imbalance.

I think these two quotes quite neatly sum up the answer to your OP here. The first one describes the reason, the second one provides an example of the kind of attitude described in the first.

Men are not "socially allowed" to publicly discuss their problems. Not by other men and not by women; its not the done thing (which is absurd, but that's the way it is). This creates a painful and uncomfortable situation for those who are upset and unhappy and unable to talk about it. So when problems are brought up for women there's a level of resentment and frustration at being unable to talk about it, which is why it is brought up then. And then its dismissed as 'butting in', despite the fact there is no other place to ever bring any of it up. You translate that as being a counter argument to silence people; I look at it as a cry for help, because there's nowhere for people to talk. And then they get ridiculed for it.

The whole feminist joke about "but men" is extremely toxic to this as far as I'm concerned, because its silencing voices that are never normally able to find an outlet. Because, again, men aren't allowed to talk about their problems.

There was a cracked article today about rape in the US military. Women are more likely to be raped than men but there are more rapes of men than of women because of the demographics. So you'd think it'd be fairly easy to find a man who had been raped in that environment. And yet the article only talked to a couple of women...because they literally couldn't find any men willing to talk to them about their experiences. Men aren't "allowed" to talk about things like that.

Worth adding on, issues that face one gender can face both, even if not to the same percentage. I am sure part of the resentment and frustration regarding those "butting in" is that the problems and solutions talked about are clearly from a singular gender perspective, despite not being singular gender issues. Rape affects both genders, but is exclusively talked about and treated as a single-gender issue, up to and including demonizing the other gender as the inherent attacker.

This, especially when added to the outright hostility at times in responding to people pointing out that they are not single-gender issues, only further breeds the problems. It isn't just that men aren't allowed to not talk about issues because of social stigma, it has evolved into an outright shaming mechanism for complaining about anything relating to their gender. Not surprising then that can even result in the gender being demonized as the source of so many problems in such an environment, problems that the gender deals with as well.

There is a limited amount of resources to deal with problems facing people in society, that inherently creates a competition between groups who want their problems addressed first. Honestly, I think tackling issues as universally as possible, and then working to dial in specifics on case by case basis as needed would be the best way to nip most of the problem in the bud. Rape isn't a "woman" issue, it is a human one. Countless issues are. Why try to tackle the issue halfway?

 

[beastro]

So why the Hell is all of this only ever brought up to shut up someone else up? Seriously, I rarely see anyone saying ANYTHING about this stuff is when someone else is trying to talk about their problems (Yes I'm talking about feminism here, but I'm trying to avoid it talking about it because mentioning it always causes the argument to be derailed). And that drives me insane. Logically I thought that the people who bring them up as counter-arguments would really be invested in male problems, but when there isn't a discussion about feminism going on, they never really get brought up.

Because it's weak to complain too much about your problems and respectable to continue on dealing with them quietly.

This is the main problem I have with MRAs. They simply want to play the same game radical Feminism is doing and turn men into victims as well when we're not.

 

[Cowabungaa]

In academic circles these topics too are part of feminism's bread-and-butter, so no worries there.

Of course, social discourse is another matter, and here polarization still keeps us from banding together under the common goal of weeding out bad shit for everyone involved. Because come on guys, how can you be even reasonably against that? Problem being of course that these topics are often not talked about in a reasonable fashion.

The question of course is; from where does meaningful change regarding these topics really come from? Academics really gunning for positive change probably can't get around 'the public' at large. Because without plunging down into reductionism; society is the public and change within it affects us all and has to come from us all.

 

[Abomination]

Because presently the solutions presented by feminism reek of affirmative action.

Highlighting that it isn't all rainbows and lollipops for the other side is used to dissuade the implementation of affirmative action.

At this moment in time men and women are equal under the law. The only situation where it is not true is in unique biological aspects to either sex such as child rearing and cervicalrostate cancer fund allocation ratios.

From a social perspective men still come out on top more often than women but from a LEGAL perspective it's the other way around.

The pendulum was far in favour of the male side in the past but it's now hurtling towards the female side and there's concern it's going to keep swinging further still.

 

[one squirrel]

Because men mostly try to overcome problems without bothering others too much. Therefore, it's only natural for them to be the ones pointing at their own issues only after being told how bad others have it.
The proposed solution for everything "learn to talk about yeer feels!" is just one little part of the bigger problem that is the increasing glorification of femininity and demonization of masculinity in our culture, and thus I strongly dislike it.

But probably men should really learn to complain more, would probably an eye-opener for some.

 

[Thaluikhain]

There is a limited amount of resources to deal with problems facing people in society, that inherently creates a competition between groups who want their problems addressed first.

Disagree there, rights aren't zero sum game. Now, plenty of people are invested in not having other's problems talked about, but that's not usually because it helps them gets theirs solved.

Rape isn't a "woman" issue, it is a human one. Countless issues are. Why try to tackle the issue halfway?

Because society views the issue very differently for men and women, though, requiring different solutions. Male prison rape, for example, is viewed very differently from the rape of women in society in general.

Having said that, there's no reason why attempts to deal with all aspects of the issue can't be made simultaneously, they'd just require different solutions.

 

[Major_Tom]

That's because the so-called MRAs don't actually care about men's problems, they just want to ***** about feminism.

 

[KissingSunlight]

Let me throw out another reason why men talk about their problems as a counter to feminists' complaints. It is to offer perspective on the issue.

To avoid getting into a quagmire of a hot button issue, I am going to use the movie Knock Knock. I had disagreed with the movie critic on this site a few times. In recent months, he claimed that No Escape and The Green Inferno were racist. So, I was surprised he gave an Eli Roth movie a positive review. The movie is about a married man who is home alone for a week. Two women came up to door and asked for help. They came in and seduced the guy. Then these women spent the rest of the movie torturing the man for having sex with them. Since this movie critic was so concerned about political correctness, would he liked this movie if the genders were reversed? If two handsome men seduced a lonely housewife, and spent the rest of the movie torturing her for her infidelity. I can imagine he would be complaining about it being about slut shaming and maybe claiming that the men raped the woman.

The problem that most people have with political correctness today is the hypocrisy. Something is a serious issue when it involves women. However, it is totally a distraction to the conversation when men complain about dealing with the same issue.

 

[Cowabungaa]

3. The academic world is overly connected to feminism, meaning people who deal in men's rights must do it on their own.

Except that academic feminism deals with problems like toxic masculinity too as it covers a broad spectrum of issues related to gender roles. So no, it's not the academic world you should look at for this problem, it's civil discourse.

 

[Phasmal]

I think the problem is that being a man, and Being A Man are two different things, if you follow me.

You can physically/mentally be a man and that's just who you are, but then society has this idea of A Man that all men have to apparently be. It's actually very limiting.
I can say `just don't care about what people think` but sometimes it's not that easy, especially when men are brought up with a strict idea of who they are supposed to be.

Unfortunately when people try and change this, the reaction can be quite strong. You often get push-back like `what's wrong with being a traditional man?` - nothing. But the thing that is wrong is assuming that every man has to be that way.

I do think it's very related to feminism and women's issues. Not in a `us-vs-them` way, but in a `one thing affects the other` way. I think it'll be a lot better when we can all collectively get over our gender roles pigeon holing people.

Forgive me if this doesn't make very much sense, I'm sick.

 

[Eclipse Dragon]

It also doesn't really help then women tend to dress provocatively.

Ah yes, victim blaming, thank you for the example.

Oh look who's grasping for straws.

Dressing provocatively has and is long been associated with trying to attract a sexual mate. Some guys get the wrong message and quite frankly every person has a good degree of responsibility for their own safety which apparently doesn't seem to apply to women. You reap what you sow.

I'm going to attempt to explain the thought process of dressing "provocatively" as it's something I myself didn't understand for the longest time [footnote]and is an aspect I don't often see discussed on these forums from this angle[/footnote] until I gave it a try. I asked myself, why dress in revealing clothing, why put on make up? This isn't me, it's just a mask.

But you see, it's not about how you look, not really, it's about how you feel, this is how Bayonetta can be both everything feminists love and everything feminists hate all at the same time. Dressing in this way to a women is similar to a man wearing a suit, it instills a feeling of confidence and power, which gives off a very different vibe in social situations than if she were dressed matronly.

When I tried it, I was no longer afraid of how people would perceive me, quite the opposite and this also led me to push myself to become even better, I started working out, eating better, being more social, now I endeavor to look my best in whatever situation and the results have been more positive than not, and no, I'm not trying to attract a sexual mate, I have one already and just because I do, that doesn't mean I'm suddenly going to stop.

Spin that however you want, I don't expect to change your opinion and Ert has expressed he wants this thread to be specifically about men's issues and already we're branching off into women's issues.

Also rape is a crime of power committed by people who are woefully insecure, note I said "people" not "men" because men can be raped too and when it happens, it's probably not because he was dressed provocatively.

--------------------------------------------

Because men inherently are not big complainers, we deal with our problems and keep them OUR problems for the most part.

Women complain CONSTANTLY, so in order to counter them, we finally let out a big sigh and explain that no, you don't have it worse, in fact, you have it the best, stfu already.

But do you keep your problems to yourself because society tells you that you should and that you're unmanly if you voice your unhappiness?

 

[chikusho]

The majority of men's problems are discussed all the time, every day, everywhere.
The most commonly used term for men's problems is "problems", and they are given ample coverage, attention and concern at all levels of society.

 

[Thaluikhain]

the very point you call it "toxic" shows how biased and degrading the opinion about men is.

No, there is a bias against the way men are "supposed" to be.

EDIT: Not least because the idea that there is one, and only one, acceptable way for men to be is harmful.

 

[Cowabungaa]

It's not the strongest of my points but what you said is like saying teaching anti-Semitic ideas is comparable to teaching Jewish culture and history, even if there is a connection, the very point you call it "toxic" shows how biased and degrading the opinion about men is.

What? I'm not sure you realize what the concept of 'toxic masculinity', or hegemonic masculinity in proper terms, refers to. It's simply the concept that there's certain societal standards of what masculinity is supposed to be in certain societies and that that's harmful to a lot of people (me being one of 'em).

Think the idea that men are not supposed to talk about their feelings, that one has to adhere to certain levels of sexual conduct, the importance of physical prowess, etc etc. And with that the exclusiveness it brings, of men who don't fall within that framework. And with that come problems like suppressed mental health issues, bullying, you name it. And those are genuine issues that have nothing to do with some kind of degrading view towards men.

 

[Erttheking]

3. The academic world is overly connected to feminism, meaning people who deal in men's rights must do it on their own.

Except that academic feminism deals with problems like toxic masculinity too as it covers a broad spectrum of issues related to gender roles. So no, it's not the academic world you should look at for this problem, it's civil discourse.

It's not the strongest of my points but what you said is like saying teaching anti-Semitic ideas is comparable to teaching Jewish culture and history, even if there is a connection, the very point you call it "toxic" shows how biased and degrading the opinion about men is.

Masculinity =/= men. Masculinity is a social concept, it was constructed by people. It is not an inherent part of who men are.

And even then toxic masculinity =/= all masculinity. If I say "Poisonous wine", I'm not saying all wine is poisonous. Toxic masculinity is a thing and it's something I've had to deal with first hand.

 

[Something Amyss]

It's not the strongest of my points but what you said is like saying teaching anti-Semitic ideas is comparable to teaching Jewish culture and history, even if there is a connection, the very point you call it "toxic" shows how biased and degrading the opinion about men is.

Now I'm curious as to what you think "toxic masculinity" means. Are you under the impression that this statement is that masculinity is toxic?

No, there is a bias against the way men are "supposed" to be.

EDIT: Not least because the idea that there is one, and only one, acceptable way for men to be is harmful.

Not to mention the associated social stigmas for not behaving according to those "rules."

 

[Something Amyss]

If I say "Poisonous wine", I'm not saying all wine is poisonous.

I imagine, however, that if people had already subscribe to "wine culture," they might balk at it on sight.