On Gaymers and Cons

[xorinite]

But you understand that the ignorance comes from the fact they are in a position of privilege and have been able to go through life blissfully unaware of the problems other demographics face, right?

Interesting, because in my country teenagers white and otherwise are over represented in the criminal justice system, given special legal status which upgrades normally civil offences to criminal offences, have bans put on their choices of clothing, excessively demonised in the media as criminals and thugs drumming up an incredible atmosphere of hostility and fear regarding this demographic.

I can't tell you how many times the TVs stations where I live will air the same seventeen year old video of some kids in hooded sweatshirts smashing a car up whenever they talk about teenagers. People cross the street where I live if they see teenagers on the same side of the road as them, and will automatically assume they are about criminal behaviour whenever they congregate, often using law enforcement to disperse them with the implied threat of violence, there are special laws for this group you see.

Oh and if you are a teenager and you are talking about anything with anyone online and they find out your age, you are far more likely to be marginalised and your views dismissed summarily usually derisively.

They are (mostly) children, of course they are going to be ignorant, and its got nothing to do with with the ever more common excuse to make presumption and prejudice against someone without ever having to get to know that person, privilege, its because they are don't actually have any life experience yet.

I mean seriously, if children and teenagers are to be made to feel ashamed for asking adults about why they arrange their affairs in the way they do how will they ever learn anything?

Edit: clarification. I don't mean to sound as aggressive as I fear this does, heat with light and all that, certainly not in a directed manner towards you judge, but half the time people just call someone privileged so they never have to even get to know them.

Edit: additional and on topic.

My immediate emotional reaction was that I am against this, no rational, just emotion.
I thought about it to determine why I feel that way I figured it out pretty fast. I don't want gay people to have their own party because they might not come to my party and I want them to come to my party.

That having been said, I don't even go to cons so I don't know why I feel like nobodies coming to mine, when I'm not even there myself. My feeling is that I want to have conventions where everyone who shares my hobbies and interests can be there so I can enjoy their presence, I don't want them not to be there, since that means I miss out on people who might be my friends.

Of course as JudgeGame and others have said anyone can go to this Gaymer con, so its more a Gaymer friendly con. Which is fine, and my dystopian vision of cons becoming ghost towns attended to by only a handful of souls is unfounded.

It isn't like gold rush towns, or to a lesser extent internet forums. Conventions by their nature are dynamic, occurring in instances, and motivated strongly by market forces so they can splinter, merge and splinter again and we will probably be better off by the end result, or at least no worse off for the journey.

The cartoons though.. No, I'm not seeing much applicability. Gay and non gay public toilets sound like a bad idea, too close to imposed segregation and Buddhist and non Buddhist temples are exclusive sets, where as gaymer con doesn't exclude by all accounts so that one doesn't really work either.

 

[CaptainKoala]

This is a logical fallacy. 'Gaymers' are people already within a group who feel obligated to make a sort of subculture out of it, when there is really no need to have one. As long as there is no such thing as a 'Straight Gaming Conference' there is no need for one composing entirely of gay people.

I swear... This convention is not exclusively for LGBT gamers. Anyone can go. As long as you are educated and respectful you will fit right in. This is not a subculture.

In the same way, normal gaming conventions welcome everyone, and asks everyone there to be educated and respectful as well.

The gay gaming convention idea just seems like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

 

[Something Amyss]

Silly me I forgot that if I assault someone of my same race and sexual orientation it is merely a crime. But if I were to assault someone of a different race or sexual orientation it is a hate crime. No matter the actual reasoning behind it. Mmm tastes like equality.

It also tastes like dishonesty, since that's not really how it works.

Tell you what, though. Any time you want to switch roles, I'm game. You can get the special privilege of being so at risk there are laws that give you "special treatment," and see how good it actually feels.

Now exactly how is that going to change anything.

A good thing nobody's using that model to change anything.

And you know that sometimes gay people get passed over for promotions or beat up because they can be assholes to right? Everytime a LGBT suffers it isn't because of sexual orientation.

Thank you for taking that stand against someone nobody's saying.

Judging from this thread, I wouldn't blame them. We still have a long way to go before having a gay main character stops drawing outrage.

Especially since people will flip out over even a "gay option."

Mass Effect got crap for just having a possible gay interest. People seem unwilling (I don't think they're really unable) to empathise with or relate to a character who is different.

Then again, this logic isn't exclusive to gaming. Just look at movies: people flipped out over black dwarves and Gods, but they were okay with with Katniss being played by an Aryan poster child. Hell, they even complained about one of the characters in the Hunger Games movie being black...WHEN THEY WERE BLACK IN THE FREAKING BOOK!

I honestly doubt we can get gays as a focus while we're still running around, scared of black people.

 

[Something Amyss]

African Americans have separated their word of oppression from it's roots. Why can't you?

They only have within certain contexts. People don't usually bat an eyelash at black people using the "N word" because it's a lot less common for someone to hate their own people, and the word has an inherent implication of inferiority.

Go ahead and call people it on XBLA, though, and it's not divorced from its roots.

Gays already have that level of separation. Well, sort of. It's harder to identify a homosexual on sight, like it is a black person.

The point remains, people often say there is no context nor is there an implication. Yet most of them don't go around saying the "N word." Why? Because they have a basic grasp of the implications and context, even if they don't seem to understand it.

Ideally, nobody would be offended by these words. Still, hearing thousands of little kiddies screaming "******!" is annoying, period. And the only reason it's an insult is because being gay is considered to be a bad thing. (edited for clarification)

Outside of your own circle, when's the last time you used language like that? I'm just curious.

 

[TheRealCJ]

What exactly would you have at a gay gamer convention that would be different to any other gamer convention or is it just got a gaudy stereotypical colour palate and gives you the comfortable feeling that everyone around you can relate because not only are they gamers but they are also gay?

How about things that aren't squared directly at 18-24 year old males? Booth Babes, for one. How many scantily-clad women would get a gay man's heart racing?

 

[The Material Sheep]

What exactly would you have at a gay gamer convention that would be different to any other gamer convention or is it just got a gaudy stereotypical colour palate and gives you the comfortable feeling that everyone around you can relate because not only are they gamers but they are also gay?

How about things that aren't squared directly at 18-24 year old males? Booth Babes, for one. How many scantily-clad women would get a gay man's heart racing?

I didn't know gay men were the only ones going to the gaymer convention? I mean lesbian's exist... we like scantily clad women.

 

[Wise_Smiling_Panda]

What exactly would you have at a gay gamer convention that would be different to any other gamer convention or is it just got a gaudy stereotypical colour palate and gives you the comfortable feeling that everyone around you can relate because not only are they gamers but they are also gay?

How about things that aren't squared directly at 18-24 year old males? Booth Babes, for one. How many scantily-clad women would get a gay man's heart racing?

Booth dudes. I'm sure someone could get behind that...*wink* *wink*

 

[Darken12]

Especially since people will flip out over even a "gay option."

Mass Effect got crap for just having a possible gay interest. People seem unwilling (I don't think they're really unable) to empathise with or relate to a character who is different.

Then again, this logic isn't exclusive to gaming. Just look at movies: people flipped out over black dwarves and Gods, but they were okay with with Katniss being played by an Aryan poster child. Hell, they even complained about one of the characters in the Hunger Games movie being black...WHEN THEY WERE BLACK IN THE FREAKING BOOK!

I honestly doubt we can get gays as a focus while we're still running around, scared of black people.

I am unfortunately forced to agree. I had high hopes The Walking Dead would help fix this, with Lee and Clementine, the two main characters, being people of colour. However, it seems that yeah, both race and gender are still an issue, and we all know those two issues have made far more progress in the public arena than the LGBT community.

I can still be hopeful, though. Giving up doesn't help anybody, and supporting endeavours like this con, regardless of whether it's the right thing to do in terms of equality, might be a positive thing in the long run.

 

[The Material Sheep]

What exactly would you have at a gay gamer convention that would be different to any other gamer convention or is it just got a gaudy stereotypical colour palate and gives you the comfortable feeling that everyone around you can relate because not only are they gamers but they are also gay?

How about things that aren't squared directly at 18-24 year old males? Booth Babes, for one. How many scantily-clad women would get a gay man's heart racing?

Booth dudes. I'm sure someone could get behind that...*wink* *wink*

Seriously... there are gay women at these things who would enjoy booth babes... not that there can't be both but its a bit odd that people would say no one would care about the presence of booth babes at a gay gamer convention.

Lesbians exist too.

 

[JudgeGame]

This is a logical fallacy. 'Gaymers' are people already within a group who feel obligated to make a sort of subculture out of it, when there is really no need to have one. As long as there is no such thing as a 'Straight Gaming Conference' there is no need for one composing entirely of gay people.

I swear... This convention is not exclusively for LGBT gamers. Anyone can go. As long as you are educated and respectful you will fit right in. This is not a subculture.

In the same way, normal gaming conventions welcome everyone, and asks everyone there to be educated and respectful as well.

The gay gaming convention idea just seems like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

I don't know what rock you have been living under but the average convention, and videogame culture in general, is brutally homophobic and uninviting to anybody but Joe gamer. Conventions are set up and cater almost exclusively towards white, straight men. If you don't want to accept this reality, I'm fine if you keep going on with your blissfully ignorant existence but at the very least have the modicum of decency to not share your hurtful, unhelpful and egotistic opinions about how you have a problem with people doing things which affect your life in exactly zero ways.

I'm not interested in giving you a lecture on basic civility, besides if you were interested you could have actually read a few posts on this thread before blessing us with your insights and learnt a few things first, so don't bother replying to this post, I won't read it.

 

[JudgeGame]

What exactly would you have at a gay gamer convention that would be different to any other gamer convention or is it just got a gaudy stereotypical colour palate and gives you the comfortable feeling that everyone around you can relate because not only are they gamers but they are also gay?

How about things that aren't squared directly at 18-24 year old males? Booth Babes, for one. How many scantily-clad women would get a gay man's heart racing?

Booth dudes. I'm sure someone could get behind that...*wink* *wink*

Seriously... there are gay women at these things who would enjoy booth babes... not that there can't be both but its a bit odd that people would say no one would care about the presence of booth babes at a gay gamer convention.

Lesbians exist too.

You might be unaware of this but lesbian women tend look for different things in women than what straight men look for in women. The same goes for gay men and straight women.

80% of the time lesbian women just feel offended by booth babe culture.

 

[JudgeGame]

-snip-

I think the main misunderstanding is that for you privilege means that you never have any problems, whereas for me privilege means (that outside of slasher movies) there isn't someone waiting for you in a back alley waiting to kill you because they hate what you are.

In regards to the teenager part. I admit that when most people critisize teenagers, it does come from quite an ugly place and it is often unfounded. There are people who treat youths as punching bags for all the rage they can't take out on women and homosexuals. It is a fact that almost half of all rapes and sexual assaults are carried out against minors. I'm not saying you don't have problems. What I am saying when I call someone out on privilege is that they don't have the same problems or as many problems as somebody else and they should as decent citizens make an effort to understand these alien problems before announcing their superiority and belittling the other party.

On the other hand, it is true that it's around the teenage years that people are both at their most ignorant and their most presumptuous and it's these two factors that make young, ignorant people say things which don't need saying and word it in the most offensive way possible because again they are ignorant of the effect of their opinions and thoughts on others. It's because of this that it is courteous to not speak in matters you know little about ("watch and learn", "be quiet and listen") and if you want to take an active stance to learning, we're on the Internet, the cumulate of all human knowledge, Google it.

 

[The Material Sheep]

What exactly would you have at a gay gamer convention that would be different to any other gamer convention or is it just got a gaudy stereotypical colour palate and gives you the comfortable feeling that everyone around you can relate because not only are they gamers but they are also gay?

How about things that aren't squared directly at 18-24 year old males? Booth Babes, for one. How many scantily-clad women would get a gay man's heart racing?

Booth dudes. I'm sure someone could get behind that...*wink* *wink*

Seriously... there are gay women at these things who would enjoy booth babes... not that there can't be both but its a bit odd that people would say no one would care about the presence of booth babes at a gay gamer convention.

Lesbians exist too.

You might be unaware of this but lesbian women tend look for different things in women than what straight men look for in women. The same goes for gay men and straight women.

80% of the time lesbian women just feel offended by booth babe culture.

Speak for yourself. We aren't some hive mind. I for one find women attractive, and I understand that there are women just trying to make a living. Your talking to a lesbian, who knows a large number of other lesbians, and gay men. Lesbians aren't horny teenage guys no, but at the end of the day we aren't as a collective offended by the notion of a woman making a living basically modeling for a game at a convention. I enjoy the aestetics of the female form, just as much as any lesbian does. We can be just as shallow and sexual as every other person, this isn't reserved for just men or even just majority men. We aren't all pinnacles of tender and emotionally focused relationships. I've dated girls who are just as promiscuous/on the prowl as a dude bro.

So yeah don't tell me how I feel, should feel, or how a good portion of the group I belong to feel because I find it a rather telling that you just assume so much about us. Either you have a very over romanticized version of us, or your experience with lesbian women is reserved for a few people you know personally. EITHERWAY your numbers are meaningless and don't tell me how I should feel.

 

[Calibanbutcher]

I look at the size of this thread and I weep.

For the love of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, is it that goddamn hard to leave LGBT people alone?! Is there REALLY so much of a butthurt that there must be this big a deluge of debate?

Small wonder this world's in the state it is.

Hi, you must be new to this thread.
As far as I can tell, there are very few people here who actually have a problem with LGBT people, some who are/were simply curious if "Gaymercon" was real and who debated the necessity and then there are some who were offended by the webcomic and article that sparked this thread.

 

[JudgeGame]

What exactly would you have at a gay gamer convention that would be different to any other gamer convention or is it just got a gaudy stereotypical colour palate and gives you the comfortable feeling that everyone around you can relate because not only are they gamers but they are also gay?

How about things that aren't squared directly at 18-24 year old males? Booth Babes, for one. How many scantily-clad women would get a gay man's heart racing?

Booth dudes. I'm sure someone could get behind that...*wink* *wink*

Seriously... there are gay women at these things who would enjoy booth babes... not that there can't be both but its a bit odd that people would say no one would care about the presence of booth babes at a gay gamer convention.

Lesbians exist too.

You might be unaware of this but lesbian women tend look for different things in women than what straight men look for in women. The same goes for gay men and straight women.

80% of the time lesbian women just feel offended by booth babe culture.

Speak for yourself. We aren't some hive mind. I for one find women attractive, and I understand that there are women just trying to make a living. Your talking to a lesbian, who knows a large number of other lesbians, and gay men. Lesbians aren't horny teenage guys no, but at the end of the day we aren't as a collective offended by the notion of a woman making a living basically modeling for a game at a convention. I enjoy the aestetics of the female form, just as much as any lesbian does. We can be just as shallow and sexual as every other person, this isn't reserved for just men or even just majority men. We aren't all pinnacles of tender and emotionally focused relationships. I've dated girls who are just as promiscuous/on the prowl as a dude bro.

So yeah don't tell me how I feel, should feel, or how a good portion of the group I belong to feel because I find it a rather telling that you just assume so much about us. Either you have a very over romanticized version of us, or your experience with lesbian women is reserved for a few people you know personally. EITHERWAY your numbers are meaningless and don't tell me how I should feel.

That's why I very intently said "most" and "often" and "80% of the time". I never assumed you fell in with the group I described and I never said you should. I tried to make it as clear as possible that I wasn't speaking for all lesbian women.

I did not claim lesbian women are not interesed in the female form. I merely pointed out that the example of the female form displayed in conventions via booth babes is very limited in scope , ie it conforms to the socially imposed ideal of what a woman should look like.

I am not having a go at booth babes and I am particularly offended by your assumption that I have a problem with women making a living. I have a problem with how businesses treat women at conventions and the roles that are imposed on women.

I don't have a problem with your sexual preferences, but that doesn't mean you can't reconcile that with respecting the feelings of other women.

Maybe you should properly read things before making hurtful acussations.

 

[TheRealCJ]

What exactly would you have at a gay gamer convention that would be different to any other gamer convention or is it just got a gaudy stereotypical colour palate and gives you the comfortable feeling that everyone around you can relate because not only are they gamers but they are also gay?

How about things that aren't squared directly at 18-24 year old males? Booth Babes, for one. How many scantily-clad women would get a gay man's heart racing?

I didn't know gay men were the only ones going to the gaymer convention? I mean lesbian's exist... we like scantily clad women.

That's nice. I certainly wasn't implying or suggesting that it be ALL male models. But the average con has almost nothing but booth babes, and the only male reps are either developers, or wearing replica MJOLNIR armor or full combat gear. A Kratos on an off chance. And I can understand why, most con goers aren't particularly interested in seeing sexy male models wearing a pair of DTs and a smile. People are complaining that this con is a form of positive segregation, and I agree. But every other con is a good example of unintentional and indirect segregation themselves; by overwhelmingly appealing to only one demographic, they are actively segregating all others.

Not to say it's on purpose, far from it. But I can see why these so-called gaymers feel like they should have a con of their own.

(EDIT: I apologise for the many typos, my phone is not a good thing to type on)

 

[DeadpanLunatic]

I have removed my words from this site.

 

[xorinite]

-snip-

I think the main misunderstanding is that for you privilege means that you never have any problems, whereas for me privilege means (that outside of slasher movies) there isn't someone waiting for you in a back alley waiting to kill you because they hate what you are.

No, not quite what I mean. To me, the assertion of privilege, as its used and directed towards people, looks very much like a mechanism of presumption. You don't have to get to know a person if you can generalise about them based upon a single characteristic, not this isn't a new concept, but it is one I've never felt was good to encourage as a way to build a better tomorrow. That isn't to say there isn't a more reasonable use of this term, but I see the former use occurring all the time.

In regards to the teenager part. I admit that when most people critisize teenagers, it does come from quite an ugly place and it is often unfounded. There are people who treat youths as punching bags for all the rage they can't take out on women and homosexuals. It is a fact that almost half of all rapes and sexual assaults are carried out against minors.

I think teenagers face their own discrimination and its not simply transference, and that there is a culture that this should just be accepted as natural. This may be in part due to the way we segregate old from young, and the lack of non institutional interaction between age groups, a product of our modern civilisation, which wouldn't naturally occur in our ancestry. As for violence and sexual violence that is often directed at those least able to defend themselves because it can be, that is to say its opportunistic.

I'm not saying you don't have problems. What I am saying when I call someone out on privilege is that they don't have the same problems or as many problems as somebody else and they should as decent citizens make an effort to understand these alien problems before announcing their superiority and belittling the other party.

I'm generally stoic about my own problems, sometimes to the point of absurdity. I almost died last year by not seeking medical treatment, and I come from a nation in which that is provided by everyone for everyone, of which I take pride in contributing to. Luckily I have friends who were concerned for me.

I have recently begun to wonder if my views on things like this are not a reflection of my culture, where people don't seek help for their issues, even when they really need it or if its some ancient evolved behaviour to not display weakness. I remember watching a TV show about wolf cubs, they knew some of them were ill, but they couldn't tell which until it was too late because the animals hide their sickness for their own protection. This was on the same week I saw Ruby Wax talking about how some starling number of people in my country have serious mental health issues which require treatment but will ignore it.

However the things I'm discussing here, are not about my problems, but our problems. We all face the problem of determining what is good, and how to build a moral society and we have to do that together or it will not get done.

On the other hand, it is true that it's around the teenage years that people are both at their most ignorant and their most presumptuous and it's these two factors that make young, ignorant people say things which don't need saying and word it in the most offensive way possible because again they are ignorant of the effect of their opinions and thoughts on others. It's because of this that it is courteous to not speak in matters you know little about ("watch and learn", "be quiet and listen") and if you want to take an active stance to learning, we're on the Internet, the cumulate of all human knowledge, Google it.

Hmm, I think this is a special case. We say one thing and do another. Children learn to recognise this early on. They also often ask in an aggressive even flippant manner because they are naturally defensive about their own lack of knowledge, and because they are driven by a requirement to test your reaction to them, to learn how they should react to the same occurrence themselves.

'watching and learning', and being 'silent and listening' will teach you significantly less and more slowly than the 'probe and experiment' method kids are naturally inclined to use.