lets collectively lol @ these "I need feminism because..." pics

[Terminal Blue]

Which kinda begs the question; if the average woman isn't concerned with feminism beyond equal pay, body image, and sexual harassment, how relevant is this neo-feminist goal of destroying gender roles?

I wonder if maybe you aren't following what I said to its proper conclusion.

There is no singular "feminist movement", there is certainly no "neo-feminist" movement, so there is no goal. The theory gives us ways of examining gendering practices and inequalities in our society, it doesn't tell us what to do with that. The theory is not simple, it doesn't give rise to simple or predictable responses, and if it did it would be very boring. There are some really weird permutations of feminist thought out there, generally they haven't been taken up by many people because they're not good arguments.

You're acting like feminists are not people, like their ideas and opinions aren't part of "the will of people". As mentioned, almost everyone accepts certain assumptions at this point which they would not have been able to reach without feminism. We generally believe that men and women are equal and should both have some autonomy to dictate the course of their own lives, we may not put it into practice all the time, but we are more conscious of it than ever before. Sixty years ago this whole way of thinking was radical, today it is ubiquitous.

Again, isn't this just a variation of the argument that "social norms of today must exist for a reason, therefore we shouldn't try to change them". All social norms change, and they do so in response to social action and the kinds of debates which are happening on this very thread. If you can make an argument which is strong and convincing, that argument can change society.

Society is going to change. Gender roles are going to change. It may not be feminism which does that, it certainly won't be feminism alone, but feminism will continue to have its place in the day to day negotiation of these things, just as it has for a while now.

I was never caught up on that idea of it being a women-only club, in fact I am a feminist by the classical definition. I'm saying that it seems very few people want to apply the more esoteric aspects of feminist theory to everyday life, and unless The People choose to implement those ideas, they're going to remain in the Ivory Tower. In other words, I'm concerned that feminism is beginning to represent no one, male or female.

You can scoff at the ivory tower, but the people living there are still people. What they think and believe is no more esoteric to them than what you think and believe. If theory can't survive contact with the world, even just through the experience of its creator, then it would never exist in the first place.

I don't know how far back you consider "classical feminism" to go, but it's likely your own beliefs began in the ivory tower, among a small number of relatively elite academics, writers or theoreticians who I'm sure were told at every turn that they were just a tiny minority, that they were utopian dreamers and dangerous social radicals who wanted to disrupt the natural order or were trying to deny reality, or that they were psychologically damaged and delusional, that their beliefs (grounded as they were in their own experience) couldn't possibly be meaningful in the lives of anyone in the real world because, you know, they weren't normal people, and they certainly weren't important people.

You want politics without theory, and that's not possible. Every world-changing idea has to start as theory.

 

[Shock and Awe]

Well if the things you are bringing up were the norm for the modern feminist movement there would be no issue, because really it ceases to be feminist and is (at the risk of sounding like Amon) Equalist. Unfortunately this isn't the driving force behind the movement today. In fact its a lot like modern Christian Conservative movements in which it mainly just reacts violently towards things it doesn't like. A good example of a look at modern feminism is at what happened at the University of Toronto when Warren Farrel tried to give a lecture there. (Link [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iARHCxAMAO0]) Instead of acknowledging problems like you and the people you referenced have they basically just cover their ears, close their eyes, and scream "patriarchy" over and over. Thats the modern feminist movement. Its not fighting against the draft or equal pay for equal work, its about talking "rape culture" and "patriarchy" and other nasty sounding buzz words.

Correction: that is an example of a Warren Farrel being held accountable for his ideas, not a 'look at modern Feminism'.

So screaming hyperbole and trying to block doors to keep people from hearing hims is "being held accountable"? I thought that is was pretty generally accepted that its better to make a well constructed counter argument then to just scream and drown people out.

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

Video Gamers...

Your first mistake was assuming a great deal about the character of the individuals on this thread merely because they happen to share a hobby. Case in point...

Arent you always arguing how you hate when the general media assumes that your just of group of violent irresponsible mysogenists,

...some of us know that we are not a group of violent, irresponsible, "misogynists". People have a right to their opinion, regardless of how incorrect it is. The odd part is that you are blaming others for the "medias" representation of you. Some people try, some people don't care and some people like trolling others for the lulz because other people won't change their opinion.

and then you make a forum topic called "lets collectively lol @ these "I need feminism because..." pics, how exactly you making your demographic look better?

Are we suppose to? Unless you're the typical gamer, who comes to a gaming website to join a gaming forum to talk about gaming; you're probably someone looking for something to take completely out of context to run on the front page of "omglookatthesetsupidgamerslol" magazine.

If you would like to elevate the stereotypical gamer demographic; one thing you could try to do is stop insulting every other gamer that happens to hold a different opinion than you do.

You complain about people not taking video games seriously and insulting you,

Just from my personal perspective, the complaints seem to focus more on how videogames are perceived as more than an entertainment choice and art form. You know; those people that claim the likes of MWF are training regiments for the likes of Columbine.

But I suppose you're absolutely right, we must remember that there are people that feel the need to come in an insult us because they having nothing productive to add to the conversation... like... yourself.

and then you laugh at others genuine call for civility.

It would be one thing if that's actually what they did, something along the lines of; "Hey, could you consider my feelings when you make comments about my choices? Maybe not be a dick to fat people because you don't find them attractive?" I doubt you would find many that would oppose such ideas. But that's not what they did was it? No, it was "smash patriarchy beauty standards" and "rape culture".

This isnt even about feminism,

Um... it kind of is. You can't really say "I need FEMINISM" isn't about feminism. Sure, I've argued similar saying it has more to do with their personal issues; but they brought feminism into it, not us.

its about being a decent human being

So why do they need feminism then?

and deciding what exactly to laugh at.

I laugh at what I find funny. You don't get to decide what I can and cannot laugh at.

its one thing to disagree with the arguements the people in these pictures are making and talk about them,

That's exactly what I did. Thanks for grouping me together with those that come in to a thread just to make fun of people who are posting in it... like you.

but the title is literally saying 'lets laugh at these idiots'.

Then you knew what to expect; why are you surprised?

And didnt we have an even recently about video gamers freuenting the words rape and *****,

News to me, where is this video? Perhaps it was from a contributor that I don't like; therefore choose to ignore... a wonderful lesson people need to learn. We even have that nifty "ignore button" to help spare each other headaches. I've got a few people on my list.

and the 'contributing to rape culture' didnt resonate with anyone?

No, because rape culture is bullshit.

I need feminism because....

Too many people still think its something to laugh at.

Because sometimes it is. Feminism that works to insure women have the opportunity to live a long and productive life? How can I help? Feminism that works to insure I call fat women beautiful? Fuck off. Feminism that works to insure women are protected equally under the law? I'll support any way that I can. Feminism that blames a law abiding moral citizen for rape culture? Fuck off.

Excellently said, very well put.

Really? I felt like it could have gone through at least one round of spell check to be honest.

Of course, the very people who want to laugh at feminism are those who think that people who complain about gamers being misogynists and contributing to rape culture are overreacting and hypersensitive.

Well, that's because they are. The problem, as EviltheCat has been constantly railing against, is the idea that feminism is a cohesive all encompassing movement; when it's not. Similarly, that gaming is a cohesive community; when it's not. This really isn't about feminism vs gaming. This is about a small collection of overly sensitive "feminists" raging against certain games portrayals of women.

http://www.esrb.org/about/images/vidGames04.png
http://www.theesa.com/facts/gameplayer.asp
http://www.onlineeducation.net/videogame
http://www.grabstats.com/statcategorymain.aspx?StatCatID=13
http://www.themarysue.com/gaming-statistics/

Your blaming a demographic that is comprised of 40-50%ish females of being misogynist rape culture supporters? I laugh at that assertion. Really, the claims and the statistics never add up. And when it's pointed out, it makes many of them seem even more foolish when they cling to their inaccurate notions.

But hey, what were the top games of 20120?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/gamesblog/2013/jan/11/us-top-10-games-2012

So which ones of those would we like to blame for being misogynist? Which ones supports rape culture?

Maybe 2011 was a more misogynist rape culture year... http://www.gamesradar.com/top-10-best-selling-games-2011-worldwide-includes-tons-warfare-and-dancing/

2010 perhaps? http://www.ign.com/articles/2011/01/14/the-best-selling-games-of-2010

Or maybe just everything together? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_games

Perhaps because Mario and Zelda are some of the best selling games of all time and people still buy them even though they've been recycled since they started; that fact they are both rescuing princess, must means the industry is misogynist and rapey.

Do you understand now? Do you get that those that look at a MASSIVE entertainment industry looking for confirmation bias will find it? I could pull the top 10 grossing films of 2012 and I'm sure the crazy "feminists" will be able to confirm their bias that they represent a rape culture full of misogyny. And I will laugh at them for it.

So the irony will be missed on them, unfortunately.

You really don't grasp the concept of irony do you?

 

[Darken12]

That is probably one of the most aggravating things as they are saying "WELL ITS YOUR FAULT FOR EXISTING!"

This will happen, sadly, with every attempt at questioning the status quo. That is exactly how the privileged majorities react. They see the imbalances and inequities as normal and just, and any attempts to change that will seem to them unjust, unnecessary and malicious.

Well, that's because they are. The problem, as EviltheCat has been constantly railing against, is the idea that feminism is a cohesive all encompassing movement; when it's not. Similarly, that gaming is a cohesive community; when it's not. This really isn't about feminism vs gaming. This is about a small collection of overly sensitive "feminists" raging against certain games portrayals of women.

Whether that's true or not doesn't actually invalidate the points anyone might raise on the industry. In fact, I would wager that the "not all feminists think the same and not all gamers are alike" are diversion tactics to avoid dealing with the actual points being raised.

Your blaming a demographic that is comprised of 40-50%ish females of being misogynist rape culture supporters? I laugh at that assertion. Really, the claims and the statistics never add up. And when it's pointed out, it makes many of them seem even more foolish when they cling to their inaccurate notions.

Women do contribute to rape culture as well. Whenever a woman sees a rape report and says "well, no wonder she got raped, dressed like that..." she is contributing to rape culture. And that is but one example, of which there are very many. Nobody has ever said that women don't contribute to rape culture. Nobody said that women aren't misogynistic, either, as proven by books like 50 Shades of Grey, which are filled to the brim with male-worshipping misogyny, and are written and primarily consumed by women.

These facts do not make criticisms of misogyny any less valid.

Perhaps because Mario and Zelda are some of the best selling games of all time and people still buy them even though they've been recycled since they started; that fact they are both rescuing princess, must means the industry is misogynist and rapey.

Actually, the idea that women are a depersonalised ideal to inspire men to do great things, property to rescue from other men and prizes to award to the male hero for his heroism, do perpetuate the rape culture. But I wouldn't blame videogames exclusively for this, as literature, theatre and cinema have been doing it for far longer.

Do you understand now? Do you get that those that look at a MASSIVE entertainment industry looking for confirmation bias will find it? I could pull the top 10 grossing films of 2012 and I'm sure the crazy "feminists" will be able to confirm their bias that they represent a rape culture full of misogyny. And I will laugh at them for it.

Your argument seems to be that if I have a theory and find sufficient evidence of it, clearly I am crazy and my theory is invalid precisely because I have found sufficient evidence of it. That is so ridiculous it is actually hilarious.

You really don't grasp the concept of irony do you?

I have a sufficient grasp of it to recognise the multiple layers of irony in that very sentence, according to the context immediately preceding it.

 

[LOLITRON]

I need feminism because I'm tired of my friends thinking I'm an asshole for criticising everything they do.

I need feminism because I shouldn't feel stupid for getting a 1.5 GPA in college.

I need feminism because I want to have a Digiorno pizza instead of Red Baron.

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

This will happen, sadly, with every attempt at questioning the status quo. That is exactly how the privileged majorities react. They see the imbalances and inequities as normal and just, and any attempts to change that will seem to them unjust, unnecessary and malicious.

Hey look at that; I agree with you.

Whether that's true or not...

It is...

...doesn't actually invalidate the points anyone might raise on the industry.

...it does. If someone makes a claim; "The Gaming industry is misogynist" and someone can provide evidence to counter that claim; the claim becomes invalid. The claim must then adapt to the counter evidence with something like; "some of the gaming industry is misogynist" which then becomes a discussion of the levels and/or influence.

In fact, I would wager that the "not all feminists think the same and not all gamers are alike" are diversion tactics to avoid dealing with the actual points being raised.

Because they conflict with the narrative of your argument. If there are feminists that support the gaming industry and gamers who are feminists; then the assertion of "feminists vs gamers" posses a bit of a dilemma don't you think?

Women do contribute to rape culture as well. Whenever a woman sees a rape report and says "well, no wonder she got raped, dressed like that..." she is contributing to rape culture. And that is but one example, of which there are very many.

Seems like everything supports rape culture. I once heard a good one; denying rape culture supports rape culture.

Nobody has ever said that women don't contribute to rape culture. Nobody said that women aren't misogynistic, either, as proven by books like 50 Shades of Grey, which are filled to the brim with male-worshipping misogyny, and are written and primarily consumed by women.

Really makes you wonder doesn't it? Why do so many women freely consume products that represent the hatred of their gender? Just a personal guess; they don't think the same way you do.

These facts do not make criticisms of misogyny any less valid.

That depends on whether or not you attempt to generalize the rest of the culture and/or industry through the use of your cherry picked examples.

Actually, the idea that women are a depersonalised ideal to inspire men to do great things, property to rescue from other men and prizes to award to the male hero for his heroism, do perpetuate the rape culture.

Is the reverse also supportive of rape culture?

But I wouldn't blame videogames exclusively for this, as literature, theatre and cinema have been doing it for far longer.

Well, as long as you can spread the blame around I guess that makes it OK. /rollseyes

Your argument seems to be that if I have a theory and find sufficient evidence of it, clearly I am crazy and my theory is invalid precisely because I have found sufficient evidence of it. That is so ridiculous it is actually hilarious.

Sufficient evidence? You really don't understand confirmation bias then. According to you, "The Rape of the Sabine Women" is indicative that art supports rape culture.

It doesn't matter that the meaning of the word "rape" was completely different back then.
It doesn't matter that is was clear no sexual assault occurred in the story it depicts.
It doesn't matter that this is one single piece of artwork in history.
It doesn't matter that art is the outward expression of ideas and thoughts.
It doesn't matter that art depicts many contradictory ideas form artist to artist.
It doesn't matter that people use art to discuss rape culture.
It doesn't matter that a smiley face picture is just a smiley face picture.

None of this fucking matters. Because Art is guilty for supporting Rape Culture. Movies are guilty of supporting rape culture. Games are guilty of supporting rape culture. The escapist is guilty of supporting rape culture. Threads about people's favorite games are supporting rape culture. People who talk about gaming are supporting rape culture. People who talk are supporting rape culture. People support rape culture.

It's quite obvious that everything I say will be supportive of your hysterically, meaningless and brainless theories of rape culture. I'm going to do both of us a favor... /ignore

 

[Vault101]

the point being that people have different body types (ones body is not a binary "skinny as hell" and "morbidly obease) that and what society considers beautiful changes culturally

It might, but what science considers being healthy doesn't change.

which evidently is not what I was arguing

 

[TheLion]

I wonder if maybe you aren't following what I said to its proper conclusion.

There is no singular "feminist movement", there is certainly no "neo-feminist" movement, so there is no goal.
The theory gives us ways of examining gendering practices and inequalities in our society, it doesn't tell us what to do with that. The theory is not simple, it doesn't give rise to simple or predictable responses, and if it did it would be very boring. There are some really weird permutations of feminist thought out there, generally they haven't been taken up by many people because they're not good arguments.

You're acting like feminists are not people, like their ideas and opinions aren't part of "the will of people". As mentioned, almost everyone accepts certain assumptions at this point which they would not have been able to reach without feminism. We generally believe that men and women are equal and should both have some autonomy to dictate the course of their own lives, we may not put it into practice all the time, but we are more conscious of it than ever before. Sixty years ago this whole way of thinking was radical, today it is ubiquitous.

Again, isn't this just a variation of the argument that "social norms of today must exist for a reason, therefore we shouldn't try to change them". All social norms change, and they do so in response to social action and the kinds of debates which are happening on this very thread. If you can make an argument which is strong and convincing, that argument can change society.

I guess Third Wave Feminism is what was going for. And the absence of a goal is what concerns me.

It's more of a cynical inquiry of "Does it work?" I, for example, can talk about White Privilege in the context of Black Studies at some length, and more radical concepts at even greater lengths. However, if talking about White Privilege isn't popular, or worse, provokes a negative response, I'm wasting my time, and you can forget about the more radical ideas. It would be far more productive in 2013 to use the theory as a guide and a tool to accomplish concrete goals: decriminalizing marijuana, destroying the school to prison pipeline, etc, than it is to simply use the theory to explain how many ways society tries to fuck me over through the Drug War, dysfunctional schools, and the like. The latter would only be recapitulating the theory in the hopes that there will some kind of spontaneous enlightenment amongst the privileged group, even though the impossibility of this enlightenment is a core axiom of the theory in the first place. This isn't to say that women and other minorities aren't fucked over by society of course, only to say that society wants to believe it's more liberal and progressive than it actually is, and trying to make that explicit devolves into shouting matches with no end in sight.

I was never caught up on that idea of it being a women-only club, in fact I am a feminist by the classical definition. I'm saying that it seems very few people want to apply the more esoteric aspects of feminist theory to everyday life, and unless The People choose to implement those ideas, they're going to remain in the Ivory Tower. In other words, I'm concerned that feminism is beginning to represent no one, male or female.

You can scoff at the ivory tower, but the people living there are still people. What they think and believe is no more esoteric to them than what you think and believe. If theory can't survive contact with the world, even just through the experience of its creator, then it would never exist in the first place.

Yeah, I'm kind of a resident of the ivory tower myself (though it's more of an ebony tower actually), so I understand the danger in being trapped within said towers. And trust me, there are a plethora of societal theories that persist in spite of having little application in the world at large. I don't believe that feminism is one of those inapplicable theories.

I don't know how far back you consider "classical feminism" to go, but it's likely your own beliefs began in the ivory tower, among a small number of relatively elite academics, writers or theoreticians who I'm sure were told at every turn that they were just a tiny minority, that they were utopian dreamers and dangerous social radicals who wanted to disrupt the natural order or were trying to deny reality, or that they were psychologically damaged and delusional, that their beliefs (grounded as they were in their own experience) couldn't possibly be meaningful in the lives of anyone in the real world because, you know, they weren't normal people, and they certainly weren't important people.

You want politics without theory, and that's not possible. Every world-changing idea has to start as theory.

To the contrary, I want it to evolve beyond theory. The theory is the beginning, not an end in and of itself. It's used to establish a foundation of political thought upon which you act. Whether or not you can convince everyone that the sexes or the races should be equal and that sexism and racism persist is neither here nor there so long as there is enough support to accomplish concrete goals that make equality a reality.

 

[dystopiaINC]

This thread...it's going places [http://www.sadanduseless.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/679.jpg].

Now then while there is still a calm before the storm, I'll say that I find some of these amusing. First off number two, what? Why shouldn't a university be named after a man? Number four, no. I'm not going to get into it, I'm just going to say that this idea is another form of collective guilt and its completely nonsense. Number six, its fine to have a healthy amount of self confidence but it shouldn't stop you from trying to be physically healthy. Lastly, number seven, well at least she is being honest that she it in order to secure a job but its not very convincing as to why the rest of us would "need" it.

you win, for life, i have wanted to use that pic for months now! damn i was ninja'd lol

OT: some of these pics are just plane retarded and i have to wonder if they were serious or just trolling

 

[Tibike77]

#1- Feminism is all about creating equity between the genders

That's what feminism was SUPPOSED to be. That's not exactly what this allegedly so-called "feminism" of today is.
I'm all for what feminism is supposed to be, but I don't like what goes around and still has the audacity to call itself "feminism" these days.
Today's radicalized pseudo-feminism today is more along the lines "men are pigs, cut as many rights as possible, women rule, add as many rights as possible".
That's simply not right, that's just mirroring the previous problem, and two wrongs in different directions don't average out as a right from where I'm looking.

IDEALLY, gender should matter as little as physically possible, while men and women should have almost exactly the same rights AND OBLIGATIONS, wherever physically possible. The exceptions to these guidelines should be as good as non-existent for anything unrelated to pregnancy and childbirth until we develop artificial womb technology, and then those should vanish too.

 

[bounty90]

Whoah acting smug and superior without explaining his point's, honestly that post was a disgrace to humanity.

Woah, acting like a hypocrite without reading the last few pages!

It's not my responsibility to educate anyone, particularly if noone's going to bother to read any actual explanations.

Then what was the point of your posting? You offered no explanations, nor links to explanations and when called out you just refuse to give more.

Your whole argument can be summed up as "shut up you're wrong, some person has already proven it wrong. I won't name them because you should know this already"

Thank's, but I don't think that either of us will get the message about responding with a bit of intellect or explaining point's to that guy.

 

[Eggsnham]

For OP: This thread is bad and you should feel bad!

OT: There were a couple in there that were pretty stupid, but otherwise, most of them were fairly valid.

On a completely unrelated note, the troll in me wants to make one of those signs and have it say:

"I need feminism for a good source of comedy material."

 

[Brainpaint]

I need feminism to FUCK OFF!

Seriously, we'd have ACTUAL equality right now if it wasn't for how bad it screwed everybody over. Male and female.

Also, the bra was invented to save us from the horrifying and occasionally deadly corset.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

Edited for brevity.

This is a machine that kills fascists.​

 

[ShinyCharizard]

snip

Best post I've ever read on the subject. Sums up my thoughts on the matter in way that is better than anything I could write. Kudos to you.

 

[tyriless]

I don't need feminism.

What we do need though, is acceptance for stepping outside gender norms.

I like a couple of Feminism's ideas, but the whole movement itself is corrupted.

Like with every goddamn movement you are going to have your outliers, folks that take the central ideas to an extreme. Most of the time, they are idiots. However, if you believe in and support any of these:

-equal pay for equal work
-a woman's right to do with her body what she wants
-a woman's worth is not inherently tied to her ability to reproduce and a man's desire to copulate with her
- a fair representation of women and men in management positions
- a women or men having to endure sexual harassment to maintain or progress through their career.

then you are feminist. If you believe in none of these, you are huge dick.

 

[Angie7F]

I am female but totally not feminist.


Now, can we have more pictures???

 

[Lictor Face]

Oh look people take 4chan images seriously. Time to bail out of the thread.

 

[QuadFish]

There is a serious and growing issue in the Western world where people are seeking to blame their personal problems on the perceptions of the general public; when they have no right to control the opinions of others.

Take the first picture as a prime example (even though all of them are). Why does he care that other people think less of him because he enjoys his GF ramming him up the ass? What he does in the bedroom is his own business, and of course the business of everyone else he decides to tell. If you go around making things public knowledge you're bound to get reactions, and not all of them agree. Exactly what does a movement devoted to women's equal rights intend to do about policing the opinions of those that think differently then he does? People think less of others for expressing their republican or democratic ideas; what does feminism intend to do about that?

Feminism is quickly becoming a meaningless term, used to combat meaningless oppression based on meaningless opinions of other people which should have a meaningless impact in your own life.

I really wish Escapist had a thumbs up button sometimes, because this is the kind of thinking that just doesn't happen enough in these feminism "debates" (or any other topic really). There's a point where someone opening a criticism reaches just the right level of assholery that there's almost no way for someone on the other end of the discussion not to feel like they are being personally attacked, and to then react with anything other than frustration and more aggression. It just shifts it from a discussion to a insult slinging fest; even without explicit insults both sides turn aggressive just off the tone.

So yeah, the OP's pretty much interpreted the same issue (though not so consciously) and then complained about it in a crude, almost-sexist way, then been called out on it by equally crude people, and you've come in, realised what's wrong with the pictures and addressed it. People on the internet are becoming experts on arguments but not debates...

 

[SL33TBL1ND]

So a tonne of your people fucking disgust me.

Just needed that put down here.